Rebalancing PVP | Forum | Spacebug Minecraft Server

Should the SMP map have a reset before 1.14?

  • Yes, I want a brand new map now, and another with 1.14! (67%, 20 Votes)
  • No, I want to keep this one until 1.14 comes out. (33%, 10 Votes)

Total Voters: 30

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Rebalancing PVP
July 13, 2017
11:25 am
[Helper] TheBugBread
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Following Blob's excellent summary of the current issues with pvp here: https://minecraft.dk/forum/general-minecraft-server-talk/my-thoughts-on-the-current-pvp-meta/ I'm starting this thread to collect suggestions for rebalancing the server for it to be enjoyable for pvpers and non-pvpers alike. Please suggest changes on how the combination of elytra/livemap/invisibility/mending/pvpmode and server rules could be changed for the better. Some suggestions will be unpopular but they're still worth hearing. I understand that hunters don't want the current situation changed but it's starting to cause more and more drama in game and on the forum. If this discussion degenerates into a flame war, the thread will be locked. So if you have a suggestion, or want to comment on someone else's suggestion, please follow these guidelines:

- Suggestions should be balanced so that the server stays fun for *all* players at *all* times. Posts like "leave it as it is, pvp4life!", "make it pve with weekly purges" or "ban pvp everywhere!" are not helpful.
- Give your suggestion a name so it's easy to refer to, especially if you have more than one idea.
- Suggestions should be feasible to implement and should not require staff to oversee them constantly. We don't want to have to referee every head drop 😉 Ideas should also be compatible with the plugins we currently have.
- If you suggest additional plugins, please add a link to them and explain briefly how they would help.
- Don't worry about the details for now. For example if your suggestion is to change one of the rules, say something like "The harrassment rule is too specific and never gets applied. It should be made more general or the number of kills reduced." instead of "The rule should be changed to max 3 kills within 4 hours, or 10 kills in 24 hours".
- If you comment on someone else's suggestion, *keep it friendly*. They're trying to help make the server better too, just with different ideas than you. Ideally, comments should point out the problem you see with the original idea, and add a constructive suggestion on how it could be improved.
- Don't argue back and forth about which suggestion is better. For now, this thread is for collecting ideas. Just because someone (even a staff member) suggests something, doesn't mean it will happen.

I'll start off with a couple suggestions, some of which have been discussed before:

- Random Pvp Drops: Players killed in pvp could randomly drop either their head, their inventory, or nothing. This could help lower the attractiveness of hunting to balance how easy it is now. You might get a payoff or you might not. If you don't, you now have a still-equiped and alert would-be victim looking for you!

- No Combat Sethomes: If a player enters combat (preferably only for the attacking player), any sethomes that player set within the last few minutes get removed automatically (the player can set them later again though). Players in combat mode can't set new sethomes either. This would make it harder for hunters to immediately tp back if they weren't successful or want more heads, so that there's more effort involved in hunting.

- Safe Claims: If you are placed in combat by another player, you will still be safe from pvp inside your own claims but not those of other players. This would make it less interesting for hunters to (invisibly) stalk claims waiting for the owner to put a toe outside before attacking and killing them even if they run back into the claim. This is different from /da, since that only works once the claim owner knows which player is nearby and has time to type commands.

- No Mending Villagers: This will be unpopular but mending is part of the problem since pvp gear and elytra basically never wear out now. This has reduced pvp to pure ambush tactics and made the cost/risk for hunters pretty much zero. If mending villagers were removed, mending books and gear would be more valuable again. People could still enchant manually to get mending but 6-emerald mending farms would be gone. I don't know how easy this would be to implement but possibly something along the lines of a command block running /scoreboard and /kill as shown here:

Advice wanted: removing mending trade from Minecraft

- New Harrassment Rules: The current rule is very specific and puts most of the burden of action on the victim. After the first kill, the victim has no gear and won't leave their claim anyway so they're unlikely to get beheaded 4 more times. It's also hard to apply in situations like when a hunter attacks teamed new players. The hunter can get 4 kills/gear/heads per player without it being considered harrassment, which it obviously is. The rule should be made more general so that staff can apply it as appropriate for the situation. It should also focus more on the actions of the hunter instead of the victim.

- Visible Livemap: All players are visible on livemap, even if they use invis pots. This would make peaceful players more of target while exploring or mining, but hunters would also not be able to sneak up to people anymore so pvp would be no longer just be about sudden ambushes. Obviously if someone's not watching livemap then invisibility will still help to sneak up on them.

July 13, 2017
3:04 pm
Dr. Pupper
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As much as I enjoy improving this server, there isn't as big of an issue as there seems to be. I won't explain why in this thread as that'd just turn it into a flame war. Back in the first world, we had constant PvP, but it was accepted among the players as a part of the server. If someone was invis, you had no idea if they were coming for you or not. It didn't matter how much time we had to hide or get ready to fight. I had plenty of random visits by Mr. Bellicose and a few others that nearly killed me, which gave the server a more extreme survival feel. This is not a matter of how easy it is to hunt, this is a matter of how accepting this community is of PvP. I have plenty screenshots of people getting upset over me not giving their stuff back. The staff needs to enforce their rules.

Yes, people can hunt others much faster nowadays. That's just the new era of hunting we're living in, and it's time the server adapts to it.

Apologies for coming across blunt, but I've just about had it with the lies spread about me and the whiny state of this community.

July 13, 2017
3:05 pm
RatedxPG
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One issue i currently feel that the server has is that there are too less pvpers. There are currently maybe a handful of people who go around hunting people on a daily basis. I remember in old world there were so many pvpers that you wouldn't pull up livemap to see your targets, you would pull it up to make sure no one was after you. With the handful of people who hunt today, all gear and heads just circle around to them, rather than around the server.

- suggestion 1: although I am strongly against PVE, with the current situation something like alternating gamemodes would be useful. this meaning that the server is PVE for an hour, then switches to PVP for the next hour and so forth and so forth (of course end and nether being pvp 24/7). this could also allow a new store perk, maybe a purchasable "Extra hour of PVP/PVE" to extend the hour duration. this would allow people to mine and work in peace, and during the hour of pvp decide if they want to risk continuing mining etc or go home. this should also include similar to claim pvp, a warning message of 30 seconds stating that the gamemode is going to switch. the lengths of time could be adjusted, say 2 hr intervals or maybe even longer.

- suggestion 2: i have stated this in a previous post, but if someone kills another player, the hunter gets shown on livemap for say an hour or so regardless of invisibility, allowing other players to have less of a worry about the hunter going around on an invisible killing spree

- suggestion 3: one issue i see and have experienced myself is hunters having a sethome right outside of a players base, waiting for them to take one wrong step then tping over. maybe something like a 100 block radius you cannot sethome, and if a player does try to sethome it sends a confirmation to the claim owner (if he is online) to which they can accept or deny the request of sethomes for the player. however this would be difficult to do, say if its two claims and one is your friends that you want to sethome at etc. one solution is only make this into effect if the claim owner is online and also not work if a player has a trust to a base within that 100 block radius.

- suggestion 4: Famboje has talked to me about this. when tping to a player, if they are in unclaimed or in pvp claims etc, a confirmation message (similar to paying players) appears stating "this player is in pvp enabled territory, if you wish to tp type /tpa (name) again"

just my thoughts
- Rated

SpaceBug SMP YouTube series- Brought you by RatedxPG!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9U3bW7a6yFTIZYXMe15VwA

July 13, 2017
9:51 pm
[Mod] The_Marauder
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[Helper] TheBugBread said
- No Mending Villagers: This will be unpopular but mending is part of the problem since pvp gear and elytra basically never wear out now. This has reduced pvp to pure ambush tactics and made the cost/risk for hunters pretty much zero. If mending villagers were removed, mending books and gear would be more valuable again. People could still enchant manually to get mending but 6-emerald mending farms would be gone. I don't know how easy this would be to implement but possibly something along the lines of a command block running /scoreboard and /kill as shown here:

Advice wanted: removing mending trade from Minecraft

I don't think mending pops up as a random enchantment via enchanting table - players would likely have to salvage end cities and dungeons for them. An alternative could be to find a way to make any villager mending trade a "mending & curse of vanishing" book. That way players can still get mending to save on resources, but there is more risk for hunting

July 14, 2017
2:56 am
Famboje
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- Villager with Mending and curse of vanish sounds like a great idea The_Marauder. or Mending with curse of binding maybe? about the livemap and pvp I have suggested this in another post togehter with RatedxPG

RatedxPG said
personally i think livemap is fine as is. however if there is to be any changes i would say something like this: if you have entered combat or killed someone you will be displayed on livemap, regardless if with invis or not, for a set amount of time such as 1 hr or so. this would make hunters spread out their attacks allowing player to be better prepared and more at ease if the hunter has already killed recently. 

Me: Really like the idea. But it would be better if it only showed yourself on the Livemap. i know the livemap has working like this for ages now, and its not gonna change because i say so. but is the livemap for new players to find a spot on the map? or is it for the pvpers to claimcamp people. in my opinion there is not much "pvp" in that. Only if it stands for players vs pray and not player vs player "equelness" i like the idea of, if you find a player kill'em and not just seek'em out on the livemap.

- I like all RatedxPG's suggestion but with a little tweak. suggestion 1. PVE Perk "works similar to claimblocks for an hour" and maybe make it cost 10-20$ per hour?. Suggetion 4. When tping to a player you get a confirmation message (similar to paying players) appears stating "this player is in pvp enabled territory, if you wish to tp type /tpa (name) again". and 10becja alternative was

10becja said
I'm going to modify the livemap to make claims show whether they are PVP enabled or not. I was given a suggestion that we should disable TP into claims with PVP to prevent "scams", but that would just cause trouble of other sorts, so making that visible on livemap is the best alternative. 

- Pvp idea. Many people rage on pvpers keeps their loot upon death. What about having plugins for keeping inventory but lose money. lets say 2k or a percentage of the money you have?

- New Harrassment Rules would be nice TheBugBread. Because many people always try to get to the edge. Not breaking the rules but close "Safezoned".

- Famboje Wink

July 14, 2017
6:21 am
Digital Beast
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Dr. Pupper said
As much as I enjoy improving this server, there isn't as big of an issue as there seems to be. I won't explain why in this thread as that'd just turn it into a flame war. Back in the first world, we had constant PvP, but it was accepted among the players as a part of the server. If someone was invis, you had no idea if they were coming for you or not. It didn't matter how much time we had to hide or get ready to fight. I had plenty of random visits by Mr. Bellicose and a few others that nearly killed me, which gave the server a more extreme survival feel. This is not a matter of how easy it is to hunt, this is a matter of how accepting this community is of PvP. I have plenty screenshots of people getting upset over me not giving their stuff back. The staff needs to enforce their rules.

Yes, people can hunt others much faster nowadays. That's just the new era of hunting we're living in, and it's time the server adapts to it.

Apologies for coming across blunt, but I've just about had it with the lies spread about me and the whiny state of this community.  

Just a Quick note on that. There were no elytras back then, so hunting someone on the edge of the map was a long trip, thus making it a safe choice if you wanted to be left alone.
That is no longer the case because it only takes a few moments to fly there with the rocket powered elytra flights.

Maybe an idea would be that elytras cant be rocket powered so that you need a really tall point to jump off, and that will take you a good amount of blocks away before forced to land?
^ the only downside I see to this is a ton of 1x1 towers to the sky everywhere but eh? just an idea for the idea box 🙂

Edit:
Well, no need to hide that me and FamBoje agree on a lot of things and I like his idea where you would drop a certain amount of your balance upon being killed. That makes it much more profitable to target established players instead of new players. I know this is accomplishable using plugins, and is compatible with the plugins I know of on this server.
I run this plugin on my private server alongside with Griefprevention, nocheatplus, essentials and many others.

Link to the plugin: https://dev.bukkit.org/projects/killermoney?gameCategorySlug=bukkit-plugins&projectID=55732

(Can we get an updated list of plugins so we're able to tell what to look for or not?)

Also, I like the entry towards change of harassment rules.

-Digi

Someone once typed in something clever here, what a shame that was my idea...

July 14, 2017
7:34 am
ImproperPenguin
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I like the idea of only dropping money (and heads) with kills. This might stop some of the noob hunting, since they have small starting balances, and hunted noobs might stay around if they don't lose all their inventory if they do get killed.

I also like the idea of rotating PVP and PVE schedules. Would be interesting to see how many people just sign off for an hour when PVP comes on, of they will choose to stay on and just work around their claims.

Also the idea of being safe if you get back into your own claim after being combat tagged. If claims are supposed to be safe, they should still be safe, even if you stepped out one block and got tagged by someone stalking you. Now of course this wouldn't apply to someone who initiated the combat.

July 14, 2017
12:51 pm
God_Of_War_
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the suggestion for a drop in balance would be a good idea but it brings in more complications as players will end up hiding all of their money into claimblocks to avoid losing anything.

my suggestion is that rockets be made uncraftable , yes people will still be able to use the punch bows to fly but it means that people will need to have more skill to get the positioning correctly and to also make sure they dont die from damage. minecraft has already nerfed the bows meaning that people will have to chooses between mending or infinity. while flying with a bow the hunters armour will also take substantial amounts of damage which may hurt their chance of winning. all though this might seem like a major change to some flying was still very much possible last world when rockets werent available and travelling to people took a bit longer.

- Gow

-GOW

December 3, 2017
7:47 pm
Sunsprint
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The problem with removing mending villagers is that people will just fish farm for the mending books instead. Additionally, mending villagers are relatively difficult to get, so I don't see that much of a problem, but I do see your point in that ambush tactics fall into a larger role than it used to.

lol hi

December 4, 2017
7:04 am
TheLegendJet
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Sunsprint said
The problem with removing mending villagers is that people will just fish farm for the mending books instead. Additionally, mending villagers are relatively difficult to get, so I don't see that much of a problem, but I do see your point in that ambush tactics fall into a larger role than it used to.  

Mending Villagers and Fishing Both are both Luck-based. I got a Mending Villager as my 20th Villager or so, the others got killed by some Guy who abused something to be able to kill them inside of Claims. It could've been the First Villager, it also can be the 2000th Villager. If it'd be possible I'd love to suggest changing the amount of Emeralds needed to Trade for Mending to X Emerald Blocks instead of just Emeralds. Fishing maybe completely remove Mending, because unless it's possible to kick People that haven't moved after 5 Minutes (ignoring Player Actions, so they can't make a macro to autofish, move or rejoin without it being obvious) or make Monsters Spawn inside of a Player, so you need to be there or you might get killed?
Something like that, whatever is possible to prevent that stuff. Mending itself should still be obtainable, just reaally rare and not more common than Beacons.

December 5, 2017
9:53 am
vanushawn
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I think the idea of "safe homes" is a great one, maybe one of the best for dealing with the PVP issue. Would you like to risk PVP go for a walk and join the real world. Do you want to be safe? Stay home. I do think removing item drop on a random basis is good, however I can see so many problems with the dropping % of your balance that I feel the server would lose players based on that. It seems to me that your balance is banked and should be safe so it would be like a random item was removed from one of my chests and given to my killer. Top players would be farmed daily and punished for their success, new players who struggle to scrape together resources would watch them vanish in a moment. On mending i would hate to see it only spawn in the End, Mending has so much utility to every player that i think you should look elsewhere for solutions.

December 6, 2017
8:42 am
ImproperPenguin
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vanushawn said
I think the idea of "safe homes" is a great one, maybe one of the best for dealing with the PVP issue. Would you like to risk PVP go for a walk and join the real world. Do you want to be safe? Stay home. I do think removing item drop on a random basis is good, however I can see so many problems with the dropping % of your balance that I feel the server would lose players based on that. It seems to me that your balance is banked and should be safe so it would be like a random item was removed from one of my chests and given to my killer. Top players would be farmed daily and punished for their success, new players who struggle to scrape together resources would watch them vanish in a moment. On mending i would hate to see it only spawn in the End, Mending has so much utility to every player that i think you should look elsewhere for solutions.  

I think dropping heads and not inventory would be enough for most people. Most of the people out hunting people only want the head anyway, the extra items are a bonus that the "good" guys give back anyway.

I agree with your points on losing money if you get killed. It would just result in the rich getting hunted more often, unless there is a way to place money into a sign in the same way you can save exp in a sign. That option would work for some people, but could be a hassle for newcomers just trying to scrape together enough money to get their games started.

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